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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
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PostWysłany: Nie Gru 10, 2017 3:59 pm    Temat postu: Sport Dots News Odpowiedz z cytatem

Dots - an intellectual game that harmoniously combines mathematical analysis and spatial strategy.

"Sport Dots" is a large-scale project aimed at popularizing the game, its development as a full-fledged sports discipline, and the formation of a sustainable community of players, where it would be comfortable for those who just want to pass the time in a good company, and those who aspire to serious achievements.

In this topic, we will introduce you to the project and will periodically report important news about its development.

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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
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Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Nie Gru 10, 2017 4:47 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

An international team works on the project. Technical support is provided by the Belarusian IT-company. The general concept is developed by well-known Russian and Ukrainian dots players. They are responsible for the sports component and work with the community.

The project started in July 2015 and now includes the following elements: information and gaming portal, forum, gaming applications in the largest social networks (Facebook, VK, OK), mobile gaming applications (Android, iOS), YouTube channel, communities in the largest social networks (Facebook, VK, OK, Google+, Twitter), public organization with state registration.

The project regularly hosts official tournaments with a prize fund, as well as a large number of friendly competitions.

Web app: https://playdots.ru/
Facebook app: https://apps.facebook.com/play-dots/
VK app: https://vk.com/app4214777_-96849982
OK app: https://ok.ru/game/sportdots
Android app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pixelplex.game.points
iOS app: https://itunes.apple.com/ru/app/id1040803200


Ostatnio zmieniony przez Volunteer dnia Wto Gru 12, 2017 8:05 pm, w całości zmieniany 1 raz
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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
Posty: 16
Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Nie Gru 10, 2017 7:51 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

An article about the history of dots and the dots community was recently completed. The fifth part is mainly devoted to the development of the game in Poland. The author would be grateful for the indication of inaccuracies and additional information.

To read: https://en.playdots.ru/history-fifth-part-en/
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zagram_org



Dołączył: 04 Lut 2013
Posty: 18

PostWysłany: Pon Gru 11, 2017 9:43 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

> Поляки же, которые последнее десятилетие культивируют на своих онлайн-ресурсах оригинальную реализацию игры на территорию, до этого, судя по рассказам очевидцев, практиковали в том числе и вполне себе «советскую классику» с произвольной траекторией окружения, домиками-ловушками и подсчетом точек. Наглядное тому подтверждение — сохранившиеся в интернете правила очного любительского турнира «Kropkoliga», который состоялся в мае 2007 года.

That I didn't completely understand neither in Russian nor in English.
I do not know what you mean by 'Soviet classics', but on Kropkoliga there are rules and these are territory rules, although it is not completely clear for me if these were 'territory' or 'old standard' rules of zagram (maybe the latter).


> Относительно авторов можем сказать только то, что одним из них был, вероятно, пользователь «Легиона» с никнеймом mastersx (игровой псевдоним kopper).
> Concerning the authors, we can only say that one of them was probably the user of the “Legion” with the nickname mastersx (game alias kopper).

The author of Szkrab had nickname kopper, but kopper != mastersx.


Concerning the history of Szkrab, this thread contains a lot of info:
http://www.kropki.legion.pl/kropki-na-szkrabie-mozna-juz-grac-t317.html
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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
Posty: 16
Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Pon Gru 11, 2017 11:48 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

zagram_org napisał:
on Kropkoliga there are rules and these are territory rules


Scoring rules: http://joxi.ru/V2VDKdqhxZlOqr . I do not see a word here about the fact that empty points inside the environment are counted. The result depends only on the number of surrounded dots of the opponent. And from the photos of the games, I see that the rivals only played to capture dots and did not even try to surround empty territory. Apparently, under the game for the territory we understand different things.

zagram_org napisał:
The author of Szkrab had nickname kopper, but kopper != mastersx


This assumption was made on the basis of this message: http://joxi.ru/VrwVlb1FOLWGBA

zagram_org napisał:
Concerning the history of Szkrab, this thread contains a lot of info


I saw this topic. Link to it is in the article.
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senny_mojrzesz



Dołączył: 04 Lis 2005
Posty: 1360
Skąd: Legionowo,Londyn

PostWysłany: Wto Gru 12, 2017 12:57 am    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

wow! you even found this guys Smile
http://www.kropki.legion.pl/viewtopic.php?t=364&highlight=kropkoliga

kibic 777 mantioned about them on forum, but we ware not connected with them. kibic saw few of them on szkrab we can check on eido.
I think they ware beaten like every school champion when started play on-line.
http://eidokropki.reaktywni.pl/games?q=kacze+wymioty&q2=&lang=en
http://eidokropki.reaktywni.pl/games?q=ziemniaksson&q2=&lang=en

oh yes I remember now something Smile I think we was trying invide them to our league but they just was losing to much.

http://www.kropkoliga.w8w.pl nothing sayed about the rules of surrounding:
1)
auto-mark after surrounding (aka "standard rules" like on zagram) ?
or
2)
you can mark surrounding dots when you want? (aka without auto-surrounding aka territory rules) ?


http://joxi.ru/V2VDKdqhxZlOqr
oh yes! was few different rules. one of them was 1 penalty point (-1) if someone circled his own dot, if was a 5 own dots then -5 points etc.
I was palying like that in my school. I forgot to tell.

empty spaces inside the marked environment are never counted like a terrritory
when the dots have been closed with empty spaces before pressing button "finish the game by counting territory" then it is not counted as territory. these are only closed dots.

"territory rules" just started from simple "i will mark surrounded dots when I want or just if I must"

weaker or very young players usual was no thinking about build the trap houses (which are the territory aswel)
the screens from kropkoliga can't tell you about that was auto-mark of surrounding dots rules players or just low level of the territory rules players. Many games was just possibly finished by resignation.
"A clear proof" in this situation is to big "word"
my ended non auto-mark surrounding rules games was looks like screen from kropkoliga and i was usualy played for a penalty when someone marked surrounded own dot. when we was marking dots, we just mark them to use them as many we can, to not have a penalty point Smile

when we start playing online we just start playing better and We have begun to see more options which was build territory even from the start of the game, and we started play much more to the last move...
http://eidokropki.reaktywni.pl/index.phtml?lang=en#url:szkrab1558
or almost to the last move, (if no 15 dots advantage rule this game should be ended with score 18-44)
and because of the games was sometimes to long, we just started count, stright after when was no possibility to build or destroy more of territory.

territory counting is just shortest way to finish the game otherwise it would have to be much longer to put the dots in every empty space.

normal rule is we play to the last empty space on the board but thanks to the program, which calculates how it would end be, we do not have to use to much time for that.

if player 1 have a bigger territory than player 2, then of course in the end of the game, player 2 have no choise and he must move somewhere, and it's will be territory of the player 1, and if in the territory are some opponents dots then this will be closed like a normal encirclement in the end of the game.

pattern for manualy territory counting is:
(bigger territory) - (smaller territory) :2

a)
for example
player 1 = bigger territory 32 empty spaces, player 2 = smaller territory 26 empty spaces.

32 - 26 = 6and 6 : 2 = 3 and it's mean 3 opponent's dots in territory of the player 1
(simply counting but not working when the number of emty spaces is odd)

b)
for example
player 1 = bigger territory 33 empty spaces, player 2 = smaller territory 26 empty spaces.

33 - 26 = 7 and 7 : 2 = 3.5 and it's mean 3 or 4 opponen's dots in the territory of the player 1

how many then 3 or 4?
it's depend which player will move first in the opponent terrytory.

if just 7 empty spaces left on the board, and this is player 1 territory, and now is the turn of the player 2, then in the end of the game will be 4 opponent's dots in the territory of the player 1.

if just 7 empty spaces left on the board, and this is player 1 territory, and now is the turn of the player 1, then in the end of the game will be 3 opponent's dots in the territory of the player 1.




on szkrab i think even was a little different counting.

a long time ago, to close the dots, it was necessary to say "stop" before your own movement, and on szkrab the counting was based on this rules.

for example

1)
if just 6 empty spaces left on the board, and this is player 1 territory, and now is the turn of the player 2, then in the end of the game will be 3 opponent's dots in the territory of the player 1.
last move on the board was for player 1, and was no problem to press the "stop" button.

2)
if just 6 empty spaces left on the board, and this is player 1 territory, and now is the turn of the player 1, then in the end of the game will be 2 opponent's dots in the territory of the player 1.
one empty space will be closed because player 1 could close dots only after pressing the "stop" button before his own move, and that was no possible after the last move of the player 2, because that was the last empty space on the board and end of the game.

3)
if just 7 empty spaces left on the board, and this is player 1 territory, and now is the turn of the player 2, then in the end of the game will be 3 opponent's dots in the territory of the player 1.
one empty space will be closed because player 1 could close dots only after pressing the "stop" button before his own move, and that was no possible after the last move of the player 2, because that was the last empty space on the board and end of the game.

4)
if just 7 empty spaces left on the board, and this is player 1 territory, and now is the turn of the player 1, then in the end of the game will be 3 opponent's dots in the territory of the player 1.
last move on the board was for player 1, and was no problem to press the "stop" button.


after szkrab was long conversation about counting, and on zagram
http://www.kropki.legion.pl/viewtopic.php?t=421
we decide to have possibility to close the opponent dots without pressing "stop" button before own move. now we can do the last closing in the game as if it was the last move in the game.
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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
Posty: 16
Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Wto Gru 12, 2017 4:09 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
empty spaces inside the marked environment are never counted like a terrritory


Yes, but I did not say the opposite. It is a question of the principle possibility of such counting in certain situations. In the Russian rules it is not, in Polish it is. This is the main difference, everything else is inessential details.

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
"A clear proof"[/b] in this situation is to big "word"


The phrase "a clear proof" in the article refers to the rules of the game, which are recorded in the text on the Kropkoliga site. There's not a word about the possibility of counting an empty territory - just surrounded dots. I can not guess what the organizers thought, and I appreciate what they wrote literally. Photos of games only confirm my guesses. They show that it was easier and more logical for players to just surround dots. Their skill in this case does not matter. In addition, considering this issue, I also meant the evidence of some Polish players interviewed by me. For example: "When I was a child in school we didn’t play territory rules ever, winner was only one who captured most dots. First time I found about territory on Zagram from old Szkrab players". All this in combination allowed me to conclude that the modern Polish rules (a la "Szkrab") and the peculiar game style that they formed are a relatively late phenomenon that is associated with the development of the game on online resources. At the same time, I do not make categorical conclusions and constantly use probabilistic verbal turns: http://joxi.ru/Vm6679pSDJPBEm

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
normal rule is we play to the last empty space on the board but thanks to the program, which calculates how it would end be, we do not have to use to much time for that


Russian rules also allow you to play before the field is filled, as well as create traps. But we went the other way, so that the games did not last too long - we introduced a landing rule.

I want to immediately note the following. In my article you will not find subjective assessments of which rules are better and which ones are worse. I explore the development of the game in all its manifestations. The verbal turnover of the "Soviet classics" also does not have any evaluative or, especially, political connotations. This is simply a convenient term for the style of the game, the most usual post-Soviet audience. And if I have evidence of the fact that Polish players also played in a similar way, I point to this in the article.
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senny_mojrzesz



Dołączył: 04 Lis 2005
Posty: 1360
Skąd: Legionowo,Londyn

PostWysłany: Wto Gru 12, 2017 7:04 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

Ok. We have no problem with current Russian rules.
In my private opinion it is interesting evolution from the territory game.
Even if the standard auto-closing rules (soviet classic) was first, we both started from territory rules.

About kropkoliga screens I will try from another way.

I just mean that the rule of our game is also to close the opponent's dots, not to close empty spaces.words "closing and surranding" can have the same meaning in kropkoliga rules, and possible this can confuse a lot. screen from The "territory game" can just looks The same like screens from kropkoliga. That's why for me this is not a proof. It's just possible. in the level which kropkoliga players was representing, may be they just agreed the end of the game with current score or in the many differnt ways. Possible they was playing aswel for standard auto-closing rules when dots was surrounded. But just possible, not for sure.

Baza mean Base
Base you can call only closed dots, not just surrounded.
One of the rule is "you can't make a empty base"
But where is you can't surround empty spaces?
You can surround the empty space, but to make the base you need to wait for opponent move into the surrounded empty space.

And if one of the rule of the game is "game continues to the "last move" simple mean this is a territory game, but scored you can only when you will close the opponent dot or dots.

I have no problem about interview with some polish player.
but if he was playing for auto-closing then territory was important aswel, of course not so important like in the non auto-closing rules, but still was possibility to dominate the game by build trap houses.


Ostatnio zmieniony przez senny_mojrzesz dnia Sro Gru 13, 2017 9:20 am, w całości zmieniany 1 raz
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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
Posty: 16
Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Sro Gru 13, 2017 2:01 am    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
Even if the standard auto-closing rules (soviet classic) was first, we both started from territory rules


In the 80's in the Soviet Union, most often counted only dots. However, there are many evidences that in some places not only dots, but also empty points inside the encirclements were counted. In any case, the rules of landing were not, the game was conducted before the field was filled, the trajectory of the encirclement was arbitrary (not necessarily minimal), traps were used. In the 90s, the counting of the territory was almost completely stopped. Modern Russian rules were already formed in the middle of the 2000s: the encirclement began to close only along the minimum trajectory, the landing rule appeared, so the traps lost their meaning and no one else played before the field was filled.

Now, when we say "game for territory", it means any variation of the rules under which the final score of the game can depend not only on the number of captured dots of an opponent, but also on the area of the encircled territory, no matter how it is counted.

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
in the level which kropkoliga players was representing, may be they just agreed the end of the game with current score or in the many differnt ways


Maybe, but even if the player plays badly, he can not fail to understand that if an empty territory can add points, then it's silly to throw the game when most of the field is empty. And in Kropkoliga there are a lot of such games.

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
Possible they was playing aswel for standard auto-closing rules when dots was surrounded. But just possible, not for sure


I agree. I'm also not sure about this, although, as I said, my conclusions are based not only on the analysis of the Kropkoliga games, but also on the words of the interviewed players. Nevertheless, I can make the statements concerning Kropkoliga more probabilistic - this is not a matter of principle.

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
Base you can call only closed dots, not just surrounded. One of the rule is "you can't make a empty base" But where is you can't surround empty spaces?


I do not see any contradictions here. The base (we call this "area of encirclement") is created only by closing the chain around the enemy's dots, yes. But the chain can be closed around an empty field, then it will be a "house" (another one of our terms). It does not bring points, but can be a trap.

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
And if one of the rule of the game is "game continues to the "last move" simple mean this is a territory game, but scored you can only when you will close the opponent dot or dots


I do not see a direct connection here. You can play before filling the whole field, even according to Russian rules, as I said above. By itself filling the field does not mean that at the end of the game you will count not only the surrounded dots, but also the territory in whatever form. I note once again that it is for this reason that we distinguish the game for territory from the game without territory.
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senny_mojrzesz



Dołączył: 04 Lis 2005
Posty: 1360
Skąd: Legionowo,Londyn

PostWysłany: Sro Gru 13, 2017 9:32 am    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

I need to play with you then. And show you everything in the game.
Here I see is to many confusing.

In territory game we can't closed empty spaces.
People don't understand a shortcut counting.

I had the pleasure playing with kropkoliga player "kacze wymioty" and you can believe me that I know he did not even realize how many possibilities is in the game.
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senny_mojrzesz



Dołączył: 04 Lis 2005
Posty: 1360
Skąd: Legionowo,Londyn

PostWysłany: Sro Gru 13, 2017 10:17 am    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

No problem with your interview with polish players. But did someone ask about closing rule?

Was possibility to close just when you want and however you want(not only shortest way)?
or
was auto-closing on shortest way only


Ostatnio zmieniony przez senny_mojrzesz dnia Sro Gru 13, 2017 11:42 pm, w całości zmieniany 1 raz
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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
Posty: 16
Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Sro Gru 13, 2017 12:33 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
In territory game we can't closed empty spaces


And what is it? ) http://joxi.ru/a2X4QKMs1vYz42

I did not correctly put it. It was necessary to say not to "close", but "surround". No rules can forbid you to surround your chain with an empty field space. The only question is how to name this space and what properties it will possess.


Ostatnio zmieniony przez Volunteer dnia Sro Gru 13, 2017 12:45 pm, w całości zmieniany 2 razy
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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
Posty: 16
Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Sro Gru 13, 2017 12:42 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
But did someone ask about closing rule?


The mechanism for creating the area of the encirclement (base) is of no fundamental importance. Only scoring. I already wrote above that in the Soviet Union was surrounded as it was convenient for the player. The rule of the minimum trajectory appeared in the middle of the 2000s and still raises questions among amateurs who are used to playing on paper.
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zagram_org



Dołączył: 04 Lut 2013
Posty: 18

PostWysłany: Sro Gru 13, 2017 6:26 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

Volunteer napisał:
Scoring rules: http://joxi.ru/V2VDKdqhxZlOqr . I do not see a word here about the fact that empty points inside the environment are counted. The result depends only on the number of surrounded dots of the opponent. And from the photos of the games, I see that the rivals only played to capture dots and did not even try to surround empty territory. Apparently, under the game for the territory we understand different things.


The fact that these are territory rules follows from this sentence:
Gra kończy się z chwilą zapełnienia całej kartki, lub do momentu gdy jeden z graczy się podda, albo obaj się zgodzą skończyć grę i podliczyć punkty.

which means
The game ends when the board is full, or when one of the players resigns, or they both agree to finish the game and count points.


This means that unless your opponent resigns or wants to finish early, you have to play until the board is full. So if you have a lot bigger territory, but enclosed little less dots, then you still win, you just play until the board is (almost) full and then your opponent will have to put dots inside your territory.

Counting territory, like done on szkrab or zagram, is just for convenience. It always simulates the result that would occur when playing until the board is full.

Volunteer napisał:

And from the photos of the games, I see that the rivals only played to capture dots and did not even try to surround empty territory. Apparently, under the game for the territory we understand different things.


This is typical for weaker players. Also if you look at games from our last tournament, they were not that many when the territory was counted. It might be that the guys in Kropkoliga did not realise fully the consequences of their own rules, but someday they would see that if you have to play until the end, it's good to have some territory.
(It might also be that they realised that, but it just didn't happen on the pictures.)

The Russian rules have 'stop' possibility, and this disables territory play.

Volunteer napisał:
The mechanism for creating the area of the encirclement (base) is of no fundamental importance. Only scoring.

That is not so important, I agree, but what is important, is whether you have to make an enclosure if you can. This is the difference between 'old standard' and 'territory' rules.
And this is a huge difference, if you have to enclose, then the area of your territory is not as important as the number of pieces of your territoty (one big pool is worth often the same as one for 2 places).

Volunteer napisał:

This assumption was made on the basis of this message: http://joxi.ru/VrwVlb1FOLWGBA

Well I think mastersx just pasted an email from kopper.


Ostatnio zmieniony przez zagram_org dnia Sro Gru 13, 2017 6:51 pm, w całości zmieniany 1 raz
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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
Posty: 16
Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Czw Gru 14, 2017 1:10 am    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

zagram_org napisał:
The fact that these are territory rules follows from this sentence


Volunteer napisał:
under the game for the territory we understand different things


And this is so. Before the filling of the whole field and, accordingly, with the creation of traps in the Soviet Union and in Russia they played until the middle of the 2000s. Many amateurs are playing now. But nobody calls it a game for the territory.

zagram_org napisał:
Counting territory, like done on szkrab or zagram, is just for convenience


But what you call simple convenience, from our point of view, is precisely the main sign of the game for the territory.

zagram_org napisał:
It always simulates the result that would occur when playing until the board is full


Not always. If you finish the game ahead of time, when there is a lot of empty space on the field (by the rules players can do it anytime), you fix the result only for the part of the field that is currently full. This does not mean that if the game was continued, the result would remain the same, because the final score will depend on how players place the dots on still free areas of the field. Counting the points, the system can not know this.

zagram_org napisał:
It might be that the guys in Kropkoliga did not realise fully the consequences of their own rules, but someday they would see that if you have to play until the end, it's good to have some territory


That's when it happens, then I'll say that the guys are playing for the territory. For the time being, I see the same "Soviet classics" in the photos of their games, which I write about in the article. If something looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then this duck is. And it does not matter that it really is a dog, but does not know about it Smile

zagram_org napisał:
The Russian rules have 'stop' possibility, and this disables territory play


Only in your understanding. For decades we played without a landing rule ("stop"), some are still playing, but nobody calls it a game for the territory, as I said above.

zagram_org napisał:
Well I think mastersx just pasted an email from kopper


I will correct this, thank you.
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