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Apel do kropkowych dinozaurów

 
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mala mi



Dołączył: 27 Mar 2013
Posty: 43
Skąd: Kielce

PostWysłany: Nie Lis 12, 2017 5:59 pm    Temat postu: Apel do kropkowych dinozaurów Odpowiedz z cytatem

Cześć kropkowicze!
Jakiś czas temu napisała do mnie Irina z playdots.ru z prośbą o info na temat polskich kropek. Gram dużo, ale moja przygoda z kropkami zaczęła się dopiero na zagram.org, więc co się wcześniej działo, nie za bardzo wiem.
Byłoby fajnie gdybyście napisali coś na temat początków gry, ale nie tylko.
Skopiowałam treść wiadomości, bo pytań jest sporo.
Piszcie !! Smile
Jak będę miała czas to może poskładam to co się uzbiera.
Jeśli chodzi o historię kropek na świecie (obszerny artykuł) macie link:

https://playdots.ru/history_first_part/

Treść wiadomości od Iriny:
Привет! Мы сейчас пишем историю точек и хотим написать о польских точках. Можешь ответить на несколько вопросов?
где и когда (год, месяц) ты первый раз сыграла в точки? От кого узнала об игре?
было ли это на бумаге или уже в компьютерной программе (если да, то в какой)?
в Польше вообще играли когда-нибудь на бумаге ручками/карандашами?
есть ли у тебя идеи, когда и как появились точки в Польше (может, кто-то из более старших рассказывал)?
интересовалась ли в целом историей игры? Где, как и когда она возникла, как распространялась? Как связана с японской го? Есть ли об этом какое-то мнение в польском сообществе игроков?
польские правила игры сильно отличаются от русских. Так было всегда? Вы всегда играли на территорию? Что в польском сообществе игроков думают о причинах такой разницы? Когда и где впервые столкнулась с русскими правилами? Какие тебе больше нравятся?
насколько популярны точки в Польше? Кто в основном в них играет? Распространены ли они в школах и университетах? Есть ли официальные организации (клубы, федерации)?
давно ли в Польше проводятся турниры по точкам? Как часто? Это только любительский уровень или есть профи, получающие деньги?
падает ли популярность игры в настоящее время?
почему польские игроки не очень охотно играют на SD (хотя у нас есть польские правила) и не участвуют в наших турнирах?
почему они даже на Zagram сейчас очень редко играют?
есть ли у тебя знакомые игроки более старшего возраста, которые могут побольше рассказать об истории точек в Польше?
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baobab



Dołączył: 09 Kwi 2007
Posty: 296

PostWysłany: Pon Lis 13, 2017 1:40 am    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

Napiszę może po angielsku, żeby (jak sądzę) było łatwiej Irinie:

I learned Kropki in the school in late 80'. I think at the beginning usually someone won in the middle game, but after a few years (at the latest) we started playing on territory. This was just a logical consequence of the rules, how we defined them (you have to put a dot if you can, that is, if the board is not full). At the beginning we just learned the basic rules and I guess we were not thinking whether we have to put the dot or not. So it was not that we learned territory rules from someone, we just developed it ourselves. We could have also chosen 'Russian rules', but somehow this did not seem natural to us. I do not remember anyone playing 'Russian' rules, so maybe it was also natural for the others.

So this was how it looked in my class in the school; we played a lot and for us territory rules were natural. We had organised a tournament in our class.
I think most people in schools at that time knew this game, but usually were not skilled enough to care about territory or non-territory rules (they would usually lose earlier).
But I am just saying about my limited experience from the pre-Internet times; since I played only with a few dozens of people, it may be that in some other cities/schools/... the rules have developed in different directions.

We usually did not play until the end, we figured out that we may count the territory to predict the final outcome. Also we would often resign earlier, if we lost a lot of dots.

Concerning Go history in Poland, I have found only this:
http://lodz.go.art.pl/klub/historia-klubu/
http://wroclaw.go.art.pl/historia-wroc.html
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kaczor



Dołączył: 03 Maj 2005
Posty: 315
Skąd: wawa

PostWysłany: Pon Lis 13, 2017 9:22 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

początki, jak za pewne u większości to szkoła podstawowa. ;o)
mniej lub bardziej ambitnie..
natomiast prawdziwe kropki poznałem tu..
Ja trafiłem na końcówkę cronixa a następnie na stronie kropki.net? trzeba było by poszperać naa forum o historii..

Natomiast jeśli chodzi o początki to powinni się wypowiedzieć gracze z cronixa ;o))
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Nemmerle



Dołączył: 27 Kwi 2009
Posty: 15
Skąd: Lublin

PostWysłany: Wto Lis 14, 2017 12:45 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

w sumie sam z chęcią bym o tym poczytał Very Happy jeśli chodzi o początki Go w Polsce to calkiem nieźle opisuje Kraszek w swojej książce "Świat Go" Wink
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mala mi



Dołączył: 27 Mar 2013
Posty: 43
Skąd: Kielce

PostWysłany: Nie Gru 03, 2017 1:48 am    Temat postu: Historia Odpowiedz z cytatem

Może autorzy prześlą polską wersję?

https://playdots.ru/history-fifth-part/
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senny_mojrzesz



Dołączył: 04 Lis 2005
Posty: 1349
Skąd: Legionowo,Londyn

PostWysłany: Nie Gru 03, 2017 4:22 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

1. how old are you?
-37.

2. where and when (year) did you play dots for the first time? From whom did you learn about this game?
-In my primary school "Szkoła Podstawowa nr.6 w Legionowie.
Ul. Królowej Jadwigi", latest 80's. or with my older cousin in his home

2. was your first game played on paper or already in a computer program (if so, which one)?
-paper 🙂 first time I played on line in 2005 or 2006 on www.kropki.net

3. in Poland, did dots players ever play with ballpoint pens (pencils) on a piece of paper?
-of course!

4. do you have any ideas about how and when dots appeared in Poland?
-I was hoping they didn't started from "go" but propobly I was wrong.

5. were you interested in the history of dots as a whole? Where, how and when did this game originate, how it spread? How is it related to the Japanese Go? Is there any opinion on this in the Polish community of players?
-I was thinking it's just started because of the boring lessons and "squered note book" 🙂 about "go" First Time i heart from on-line players I think kibic 777 told me about this Game, around 2006?

6. was there any other name for the game in Poland other than “kropki”?
-no! Or I've never heart.

7. nowadays, Poles prefer playing with territory. Has it always been this way? From other Polish players, I heard that in the 1990s many players played without territory, and the game with the territory appeared on Szcrab. It's right? Was there a game on the territory on Cronix?

-when I start play on the paper, of course we played with territory, but more times game was finished by resignation. I have never was thinking about this like about territory. "TRAPS" that i was coling surrouned empty spaces. I new about when will be no more space for move than my opponent will move in to my "trap". Was few very important rules.
If someone wanted to close opponent dots, he should say "STOP" before his move. If he didn't say that, then he just loose opportunity for that and he could just move without closing opponent.
Another rule was: you don't need to close connected dots if you don't want this yet.
And you can mark surrounded dots however you want, not only shortest way. (Sometimes that was looking funny)

In one tournament we was playing for example 20min only (in group stage) to make tournament time shorter. Every player had different colour of marker 🙂
The first my tournament was in my home and all players was from my primary school class. I think it was 1991. Was 9 players and 3 best ones was playing in the final group to the last move. I won this tournament 🙂 after that untiI 1995 I had difficulty to find someone who wanted to play with me.
In 1995 when I was in the middle school in "Warsaw" (Grochów zone) we had small league with two more guys and we play regular but still I was much better then my opponents. After this again was long break (no people to play).
In 2001 I was in regular army. there was just one guy from "Ostrołęka" in my team, happy to play but still much worst player then me. We was looking for more players in other teams in our company in the building. We found just one guy from "Kielce" he said like he is the best in his room and he never founded better player then him in his school. That was a challenge and that game was about best "kropki" player on my company. Was 10 watchers or more, from my and his team, he was sure about he will beat me up, but he was wrong 🙂

My first on-line game was (when I have for first time my own internet connection) on website www.kropki.net
Made by "myszkin"
That was 2005 I think.
I've start invide old players which was playing on Cronix. Contacts to them I just found on "legend" forum www.kropki.legion.pl (kibic777 is the admin)
Kibic777 made me realize very quick
about I am not the best in the world 🙂 after he beat me up few times badly.
www.kropki.net page was no so good like cronix but in this time was no other page.
Was no time limit, was auto-surrounding which was working not 100% properly etc.
No everyone was happy to play In the league there, specially because was a no time limit.
From players which was playing there anyway, the most time the league winner was:

Michals
Kubusio
and even me 1 time 🙂

http://www.kropki.legion.pl/viewtopic.php?t=334

www.szkrab.net.pl
First tournament on "szkrab" happend between october-december 2006.
We asked szkrab owner "kooper"
To make a dot game on his page because we trying organize a great tournament memory of Aros (Arosik). Aros was one of the best players and I was informed by his friend about his die in the car accident. "Kooper" with big help of "kibic777" make this happend. We was playing this tournament every year on www.szkrab.net.pl when the page stopped working properly we have moved to the www.zagram.org made by "bartek" around 2011.
After first "Great Tournament Memory of Aros" we started regular league which is played ones or twice per year until now. In the best time we had around 40 players in the league and was 4 levels
http://www.kropki.legion.pl/viewtopic.php?p=3340#3340

8. why is the game with the territory popular with Polish players? What they see as advantages before the game without territory?
-I think we playing for terrytory because of this is the way how it started in most polish schools. Many of us trying to keep this rules alive. We think this rules can give a much more options for the players.

9. do you have screenshots of game clients Cronix and Szkrab? If there is, can you send for posting in the article?
- I have some screens from www.kropki.net and www.szkrab.net.pl
I will try to ask olders on-line players who got screens from other pages.

10. how popular is dots in Poland? Who basically plays in them? Are they common in schools and universities?
- For now I think the kids in the school like a different games Smile on PS or Xbox, not sure about people still playing in the schools and universities.

11. are there any official organizations in Poland developing dots?
-we was thinking about official organization but still we are not official organization.
We have a problem to find the time for a game Sad in organization can be even more duties.

12. is the popularity of the game currently falling?
- possible.

13. judging by the information on the Internet, you mainly organize tournaments. This is true? Are there any other communities of dots players, besides the one that exists around the forum http://www.kropki.legion.pl/?
-yes I am better organizer then player Smile
But for now we have even more people happy to do that.

14. who created this forum?
- Kibic777 I have already mentioned about him few times. He is the Legend and he was the one of the best "kropki" players, but he don't like tournaments. I hope he still playing Smile

15. I heard that Zagram is hosted on the university's server, is that so? What is the name of the university?
-ups. I should know that. Bartek can give you more informations about this. Thanks for Bartek any way about good page with dots.

16. can you send me your photo to be added to the article?
-yes I will

Thx.

PS. Sorry for my English.


Ostatnio zmieniony przez senny_mojrzesz dnia Nie Gru 03, 2017 6:31 pm, w całości zmieniany 4 razy
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senny_mojrzesz



Dołączył: 04 Lis 2005
Posty: 1349
Skąd: Legionowo,Londyn

PostWysłany: Nie Gru 03, 2017 4:34 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

ja mam tylko po angielsku bo tak odpowiadałem Rosjaninowi na jego pytania i teraz zobaczyłem że chyba wkleiło mi się tylko 7 odpowiedzi na jego pytania. Dosłałem mu resztę przed chwilą ale raczej już nie będzie to użyte.

Ciekawi mnie kto dał mu tyle informacji czy może sam to ogarnął za co należą mu się słowa uznania.

Jeśli ktoś z naszych chce ogarnąć naszą historię i Mała Mi wyraziła chęć (chyba że już zrezygnowała) to chętnie odpowiem na pytania ale ostrzegam że te wyżej zajęły mi pare tygodni w drodze do i z pracy w komunikacji miejskiej London.
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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
Posty: 7
Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Nie Gru 03, 2017 5:48 pm    Temat postu: Re: Historia Odpowiedz z cytatem

mala mi napisał:
Może autorzy prześlą polską wersję?


I can duplicate the page and translate the text into Polish using Google, but I need someone who can check the correctness of the translation. The text is rather complicated, with a lot of specific turns of the Russian language. Google can distort the meaning.
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Volunteer



Dołączył: 16 Lis 2017
Posty: 7
Skąd: Russia

PostWysłany: Nie Gru 03, 2017 6:01 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

senny_mojrzesz napisał:
Ciekawi mnie kto dał mu tyle informacji


The Internet remembers everything. You just need to be able to ask him questions )
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mala mi



Dołączył: 27 Mar 2013
Posty: 43
Skąd: Kielce

PostWysłany: Nie Gru 03, 2017 6:06 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

Ok, Volunteer, it's important that someone wrote, thank you. Smile
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kubusio



Dołączył: 08 Sty 2003
Posty: 336
Skąd: Warszawa

PostWysłany: Nie Gru 03, 2017 9:51 pm    Temat postu: Odpowiedz z cytatem

I remember I learnt to play kropki In the late 80s when I was about 5 or 6. I was taught by my older cousins who already knew how to play. From what I remember some of my uncles also knew the game and said they learnt it in their secondary school which would be some time in the early 60s. I played the game a lot when I was in primary school and then had a long pause before I found it again on the internet. I guess you know that story - it started with zagraj.pl (also called cronix), then kropki.net, szkrab.net.pl and finally zagram.org.
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